The Battle Hymn of the Republic
 

This is my all-time favourit hymn. Do any futurists here like it? Care to discuss some of the theology behind the song with me?

What is a "futurist"?

Just for clarity's sake...

I like the song too. What point do you think it proves.

Sure thing - not that a song "proves" anything from the Bible but it gives us a glimpse into the theology of a certain time period.

Let's talk about the first stanza:

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.

A lot of things could be said. First, in battle in which evil was being defeated (slavery - though some would say a far greater evil won in the form of a centralized fed govnt) the author could say that she was seeing the glory of the coming of the Lord.

How was the Lord "coming"? How did she "see" it? Where did she see the Lord's "glory"?

There are a few more points but we can take this slowly.

I'm really confused. Were the verses of this hymn quoted from the Bible? If not, I don't think there is any point discussing these verses to prove anything because they are not from the Scriptures.... I like the song, too, though....

Yoshua, I think there is value in discussing them, the same as discussing works such as Augustine's "City of God" "Pilgrim's Progress" and even "Left Behind."

I do not wish to debate the merit of discussing things that are not in the Scripture - in fact it is not in Scripture to not talk about the meaning of things not in Scripture.

Please participate in this thread if you want to discuss the hymn.

i love the song and i can remeber singing it in school, but they aren't allowed to any more, i asked my oldest granddaughter if they sang it now in their plays they put on, she said "no".

Do you have any thoughts about the theology behind the song?

My mind is completely blank. (Not uncommon.)

What do you think it means? It would seem to me that someone could read the Bible, then write this song in the first person as if they were there. (Even though they really didn't witness the coming of the LORD or even have a real spiritual vision or dream.)

Dee Dee Warren,


You have already suggested a couple of very differnt views on the battle. Without knowing for sure, which view dominates, how can you know what theology is offered?

Frank

Its just simply a song written during the War Between the States. It has nothing to do with a prophetic end times apocalyptic vision. The idea was the power of God shown in the righteous cause of Union forces.

I have? Where?

Do you think eschatology is only the "end of the world" ? And I didn't say or even suggest it was about the end times. Your last sentence is an interesting thought - let's put that on the list.

Obviously I am going somewhere with this, but if we are more interested in truth than in saying something that might not be so good for a treasured doctrine than just say what it appears. The song isn't scripture and in fact I read that the author was an arian in the first place.

You and I are almost on the same page. I will give my opinion and point but I want to give enough opportunity for others to jump in.

Dee Dee Warren,



You mentioned 2 in this statement.


What is it you think is being referenced? And how do you know that is what is referenced?

Frank

Well put. :thumb

Errr because the author told us so - that is why the song was written and why it is called the Battle Hymn of the Republic. My interest is in her choice of words, not specifically the battle that inspired it as we in church are not too likely to be thinking about the Civil War when we sing it

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/b/h/bhymnotr.htm

Giving the history is not giving the theology behind it

So the Lord's second coming happened during the Civil War? :confused

Thank you Hoot very much for posting the song. You know, I've sung this I don't know how many times, and reading it right now, well, I saw things I've never seen before :clap :dancing


What an incredible song.

It was written by a unitarian and I don't think that the author's intent was what we view it as today. But, you are correct about it being a civil war song.

Look, Dee Dee, I am trying real hard to see something in the song about "theology", but it just isn't there for me. This song is in my church's hymnal, along with other songs which are categorized as "patriotic". These songs are included ONLY because they can be used by the church during special patriotic occasions such as Memorial Day, 4th of July, Veterans Day, etc.

I appreciate the song and am glad it is in the hymnal for the same reason as stated above. While I can appreciate the author's emotions and the times in which it was written, it is NOT "God Breathed", "God Inspired" Written Word. It is simply the feelings or thoughts of that person who wrote it...nothing more. If you are interested in hymns which are more commonly used by the Church that present thoughts concerning the end times and Jesus' Return, then why not consider this one:

Joy to the world, the Lord is come!
Let earth receive her King;
Let every heart prepare Him room,
And Heaven and nature sing,
And Heaven and nature sing,
And Heaven, and Heaven, and nature sing.

Joy to the earth, the Savior reigns!
Let men their songs employ;
While fields and floods, rocks, hills and plains
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat, repeat, the sounding joy.

No more let sins and sorrows grow,
Nor thorns infest the ground;
He comes to make His blessings flow
Far as the curse is found,
Far as the curse is found,
Far as, far as, the curse is found.

He rules the world with truth and grace,
And makes the nations prove
The glories of His righteousness,
And wonders of His love,
And wonders of His love,
And wonders, wonders, of His love.

Isaac Watts wrote this and it is often found in church hymnals among songs which commemorate Jesus' FIRST Coming. In my mind, this song is definitely about Jesus' SECOND Coming and not His First. What do you think?

Considering the Battle Hymn of the Republic went through a number of versions before the Civil war, and the current version was written as the result of Julia Ward Howe feeling inspired to write a poem that better fit the music from a song called John Brown's Body [lyrics below], how does that fit into your theology?

John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave,
John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave,
But his soul goes marching on.

Chorus:
Glory, glory, hallelujah,
Glory, glory, hallelujah,
His soul goes marching on.

He's gone to be a soldier in the Army of the Lord,
He's gone to be a soldier in the Army of the Lord,
His soul goes marching on.
Chorus:

John Brown's knapsack is strapped upon his back,
John Brown's knapsack is strapped upon his back,
His soul goes marching on.
Chorus:

John Brown died that the slaves might be free,
John Brown died that the slaves might be free,
His soul goes marching on.
Chorus:

The stars above in Heaven now are looking kindly down,
The stars above in Heaven now are looking kindly down,
His soul goes marching on.
Chorus:

Do you discredit the theology behind What Child is This since the original words were a pagan song? or how about Amazing Grace.

It really is amazing that a simple ole song has some dancing on hot coals.

Hey AnyDayNow - we can talk about Joy to the Wolrd next, I wanted to anyways.

Dee Dee Warren,




These are her only words presented on that link.

I awoke in the grey of the morn*ing, and as I lay wait*ing for dawn, the long lines of the de*sired po*em be*gan to en*twine them*selves in my mind, and I said to my*self, “I must get up and write these vers*es, lest I fall asleep and for*get them!” So I sprang out of bed and in the dim*ness found an old stump of a pen, which I re*mem*bered us*ing the day be*fore. I scrawled the vers*es al*most with*out look*ing at the p*aper.


Where is there an indication of her theology in these words? I can see why threads reach 10,000 posts on your board. We arewell into the threadand you have yet to make a point.

Frank

I already did. That was my not-so-subtle way of showing you how to post a song and come right out and say what you think about it. We're still waiting.

BTW, Is it true that you are Unitarian/Post-mill? :B: :lol

Who's dancing on hot coals? We're just waiting for you to explain the so-called theology behind the lyrics of the hymn.

:spit

I am waiting for everyone who wants to take a stab at it to do so first. If you do not care for my posting style then don't post in threads I start - I certainly am weary of the snide comments.

AnyDayNow - what? I am postmill but certainly not Unitarian, where did you get that idea? And with the laughing smiley? Do you think accusing someone of denying the deity of Christ is funny?

Oh and BTW, the 10K post thread was a contest - we see we encourage people to take a break from taking snide comments and have some fun together. We do have debate threads well over 250 posts and our members enjoy them. Taking pot shots at me is one thing, but must you then insinuate that about our membership?

I would really appreciate it if you are going to heckly that you don't participate in my threads - of course no one is stopping you, I am requesting it. I usually honour such requests whenever asked of me.

Hey, you started the thread. Looks like you should give your thoughts first thing.

Dee Dee, Try not to be too fragile in this forum. At least when you're on the other end.

Our threads close at 250 posts. Your response, in part, "...at TWeb we have threads over 10,000 posts long..."

Nothing is said about it being one thread and that thread being a contest.

Considering it usually doesn't take 2 pages for someone to make their point in this forum, I thought the remark was funny.

"Many dispies belief it will be in Israel. If you don't think that than this criticism isn't directed at you. Plenty however believe it will be in Israel,and all I can say is that it is pretty warped to send people to where you belief 2 out of 3 will be slaughtered."

Is that a 'pot shot' at our membership? Those who think this is referring to Israel are pretty warped?

"Good luck booking a flight during the end of the world."

Is that a snide remark?

:):

Dee Dee Warren,

No problem. The thread is all yours.

Frank

Ditto

I dont know anything about the theology behind the words to the battle hymn of the republic, but thanks for posting. I hadnt read the words in years. It bought back many memories. :):

I'm with them...

Livn, the words are fantastic. I am glad it brought back memories for you.

Funny? No. But I actually read the posts in these threads and someone already posted that the author of TBHOTR was Unitarian. As far as the post-mil goes, you openly admitted it in another post. Quit trying to compare your board to this one. Here we have fun at each other's expense (I take my lumps too) but I don't think we ever forget the Price that Jesus Paid for each of us. Lighten up, put me on your ignore list, or both. BTW, you saw the lol smiley, but you missed the tongue sticking out one, which should have told you I was just kidding. Sorry if I offended. I will stay out of your threads from now on, but you are still welcome in mine.

I am doing some background research into some more of the history of the song.

In the meantime, can someone answer why the authoress thought it was appropriate to say "Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord."

To say this is not theological is absurd - the wording is reflective of Scripturel, the rest of the song goes on to talk about God's judgment and Christ's atonement.

AnyDayNow - I was the one I believe who mentioned she was Unitarian - how you would have any inkling to try ask if I might be was strange - of course I realized it was a joke, I asked why you thought it was funny. I think a lot of things are funny - being accused of denying Christ is not one of them. Now a funny comment would have been to ask me if I love this Civil War song so much am I one of the oddballs that go out and reenact the historical battles? Now that would have been funny. And no I do not, but I do have a great interest in the Civil War as an item of history - it wasn't that long ago - imagine the horror of having to fight your own countrymen and the loss of all those men and the widows scrambling to survive. All of this forms the backdrop for this song.

So how do the authoress' eyes see the glory of the coming of the Lord?

Perhaps she read the Bible & was able to get a visual? I don't know....this seems like a really simple statement to try to take apart. What do you think it means? Is it something bad?

Who knows, maybe the Lord appeared to her like He appeared to my daughter a few years back... in all of His glory too I might add.

Good answers guys - I will post a bit later what I think it means (actually not to be smug but what it does in fact actually mean) and see how this can broaden our perspectives, not just of the Bible but of different cultures and times. Though the Civil War really wasn't that long ago, it really was a whole different world.

You remind me of another poster here named philip29640.....how long do you plan to keep us in suspence?

Okay here are my thoughts - the background of course is the Civil War, the authoress was on the side of the North, more specifically on the side of freeing the slaves. She heard the soldiers singing a song called "John Brown's Body" and was inspired and challenged by a friend to set the tune to more uplifting and victorious words.

So she says (actually the words that she intended the soldiers to say)

Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord

Why those words? She surely cannot be speaking of the Second Coming, but she just as surely is composing an affirmative statement about the nature of the event that they were experiencing. It brings to mind many Biblical verses of which she surely was referencing - NOT as fulfillment but as a type of what the original Bible passage meant. For instance:

....they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory....

And this is because "coming" in the OT means judging, ruling, manifesting - YHWH "came" many times in the OT to many nations - he "came" in the judgment of wicked nations. Julia is stating that they are seeing the righteous judgment of God. This is further proven by the following text which again is purposefully using Biblical phrases in a judgment context:

He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;

an allusion to:

"Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

she continues:

He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:

alluding to:

For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be

And many OT references to God's judgment being like "lightning"

In other words the hermeneutical understanding of Julia, and of many commentators of that time that this phraseology does not of necessity refer to a visible bodily coming of Christ.

The rest of the song supports this theme. This one is particularly interesting:

He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat;
He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment-seat:

He is CURRENTLY judging and CURRENTLY reigning - the trumpet has sounded forth -

they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This hymn exemplifies the eschatological understanding prior to the rise of dispensationalism. Of course there have always been premills, but for a great period they were in the minority and dispies were nonexistent.

Another old hymn does the same - contradispensational, current reign of king theology "All Hail the Power of Jesus' Name":

Ye chosen seed of Israel's race,
ye ransomed from the fall,
ye ransomed from the fall,
hail him who saves you by his grace,
and crown him, crown him,
crown him, crown him,
and crown him Lord of all.

This is speaking of the Church. WE are the Israel of God. Older hymns are filled with this type of theology.

Those are my thoughts.

Remember she is writing a hymn for the soldiers to sing - it is from their point of view - they were the embodiment of "God is marching on" to carry the truth of the value of freedom for men, regardless of colour.

Dee Dee - What are "premills" & "dipsies"?

BTW - The rest makes sense to me....that she saw the words from the perspective of doing GOD's will & judgment....I think that has been true for many wars.

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.

I have seen Him in the watch fires of a hundred circling camps
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps;
I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps;
His day is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His day is marching on.

I have read a fiery Gospel writ in burnished rows of steel;
“As ye deal with My contemners, so with you My grace shall deal”;
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with His heel,
Since God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Since God is marching on.

He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat;
He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment seat;
Oh, be swift, my soul, to answer Him! be jubilant, my feet;
Our God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Our God is marching on.

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us live to make men free;
[originally …let us die to make men free]
While God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! While God is marching on.

He is coming like the glory of the morning on the wave,
He is wisdom to the mighty, He is honor to the brave;
So the world shall be His footstool, and the soul of wrong His slave,
Our God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Our God is marching on.

Man this song really shows how godly people were back then.It puts us to shame!I have read that during the Civil War that the Union and the Confederate armies would be resting on opposite sides of a river,and would be trying to out do the other side with their battle hymns.

I didn't know that making war was biblical....didn't He tell us to love our enemy and pray for those who persecute us? I'm not necessarily against all kinds of war in a political point of view, but I don't think anybody should quote any Scripture to justify any kind of violent actions, including war. I still don't see the point....as far as I see, the "lord" in this song appears to refer to "Freedom".

It is extremely hard for me to believe that taking up guns and killing thousands of fellow countrymen will glorify and please the Lord...

__________________________________________________ ______________________

Read Joshua.

LD, Here are some definitions, though you might find some slight variations if you do a search on each view-

Futurist - A theologian who believes that the Scripture prophecies of the Apocalypse (as in the Book of Revelations) will be fulfilled in the future

Premillennialism - This is a teaching concerning the end times (eschatology). It says that there is a future millennium (1000 years) where Christ will rule and reign over the earth. At the beginning of the millennium Satan and his angels will be bound and peace will exist on the entire earth. At the end of the 1000 years Satan will be released in order to raise an army against Jesus. Jesus will destroy them and then the final judgment will take place.

Dispensationalism - A system of theology that recognizes different stewardships of man under God. Sees God working with man differently during different periods, such as Law vs. Grace, or the garden vs. the postnoahic age, etc. Dispensationalism's key teachings are 1.) a consistent literal interpretation of the Bible; 2.) a clear distinction between Israel and the Church.

Partial Preterism {This is Dee Dee's view} - Holds that prophecies such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ were fulfilled c. AD 70 when the Roman general (and future Emperor) Titus sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Jewish Temple, putting a permanent stop to the daily animal sacrifices.

Most (but not all) Partial Preterists also believe the term Last Days refers not to the last days of planet Earth or the last days of humankind, but rather to the last days of the Mosaic covenant which God had exclusively with national Israel until the year AD 70. As God came in judgment upon various nations in the Old Testament, Christ also came in judgment against those in Israel who rejected him. The "last days," however, are to be distinguished from the "last day," which is considered still future and entails the Second Coming of Jesus, the Resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous dead physically from the grave in like-manner to Jesus' physical resurrection, the Final Judgment, and the creation of a literal (rather than convenantal) New Heavens and a New Earth free from the curse of sin and death which was brought about by the fall of Adam.

Nearly all Partial Preterists hold to amillennialism or postmillennialism. Many postmillennial Partial Preterists are also theonomic in their outlook.

I would suggest you study the various views to determine where you are before you agree to Dee Dee's "fact" to what it "actually means", which is -

Which must mean the equivilent to Partial Preterism, as she is not dispie, not a futurist, nor premil.

But would the LORD want Christians to knowingly look the other way and not do something to change the conditions for blacks regarding slavery, then later segregation? (I know there were other issues causing the Civil War but for the most part, it was the scourge of slavery that inspired many to go to war against fellow citizens.)

What about this passage:

Why else would you need to lay down your life for a friend unless that friend was being unjustly threatened by another man?

The men who decided to go to war to abolish slavery made the greatest sacrifice for their "friends" (the slaves) and I am certain that because Christ praises this action in this verse that this war also pleasing in GOD's eyes & served a just & moral cause.

After all, these men could have simply ignored the issue of slavery. They could have simply allowed it to go on but not owned slaves or supported slavery in any way themselves....and that may have gotten them into heaven but would have done nothing for the black people of this country.

I doubt this country would have been so blessed by GOD throughout history if we all did not look out for those in our society who are mistreated and attempt to correct the situation.